Observations of the American Republic

American Voice 1

A Conversation with Mr. Salaam…

with 6 comments

This is a post in reply to Robert Salaam who’s post was read last week and against whom there are no negitive feelings. The reason for the post is the conversation was cut short by Mr. Salaam and the answer to his reply provides information this writer considers nessacary to the conversation.   

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

With respect who do you think the Creator is… The Creator is GOD. Currently people in America do have life, liberty and the persuit of happiness… so what is the problem.

Contrary to what you may think Scripture plays a large roll in our nation:

In 1892 the US Supreme Court made this ruling in a case. (Church of The Holy Trinity vs. The United States.) “No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation.”

It is true God considers homosexuality as an abomination. So what is wrong with a Scriptural point of view. declaring what is wrong to be correct is a sign of the comming of the end of time.

Blessings,
AV1

2009 May 27

Robert Salaam

Peace and Blessings AV1,

Should I therefore infer from your referencing of Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 457 (1892), that you support the idea that as this is a “Christian Nation” legislation that is passed can be enforced or revoked based on the conformance to the Christian religion? Are you suggesting that the laws of the United States should be interpreted based within the Christian religious theological concepts? If so, then which Christian theology, Church, or Sect should we interpret from or use as a guide? The Mormon Church, The Catholic Church, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.

This is the problem with such legal inferences in which Justices of centuries past sought to interpret based on assumptions that are not clearly outlined in the Constitution. Not only does it give the Christian Right ammunition, but it also points out the mass hypocrisy of those who promote such interpretations of US Laws. If the founders wanted this nation to be a pseudo or defacto Christian theocracy, why did they go through the pains they did to ensure freedom of religion and separation of Church and State? Why even mention it? Why not pick a Church call it the Church of America and legislate around that specific cannon?

This specific legal opinion by the Supreme Court had nothing to do with whether or not this is a Christian nation, nor did it have anything to do with setting precedent on how we should interpret or pass laws. It was of the opinion of the Court of that era, that this is a Christian nation and as such should in essence ignore the immigration laws for Christian clergy who do business with Churches in America.

Even if this court got it right and those who support this legal opinion are right, you still have the problem of explaining the extent of the Churches influence on our laws and letting us know exactly what Church law we are supposed to hold as the supreme model.

Furthermore, you also embolden my case that to support this type of thinking only emboldens the hypocrisy of some Christians and sets a dangerous precedent that if allowed means that laws could be passed to deny the rights of any citizen who doesn’t adhere to “Christian” law or legal theory. Entire sects, religions, and ideologies could be banned because they don’t adhere to the standards of a “Christian Nation” and if this is a “Christian Nation” as you suggest, I once again ask what Bible are we reading?

To your commentary: “With respect who do you think the Creator is… The Creator is GOD. Currently people in America do have life, liberty and the persuit of happiness… so what is the problem.”

You completely misunderstood my commentary apparently. It doesn’t matter what you or I feel about God, religion, theology, etc. Our beliefs should not be legislated against and or over others beliefs. If that were allowed, we would have to redefine our Constitution and decide which religion has precedence. The entire end times rant, is a belief I do not hold, it’s typical of the sky is falling types. To me, it’s arrogant to attempt to know the mind of God as He has not informed man of when the world would end. My beliefs, which according to you can be legislated against, state that our focus should be on our lives now and leave the future to God’s Will Alone. If it were God’s Will that the world should end now, I would have to believe that the reason would not be from Gay marriage but could have something to do with the general state of this so-called Christian Nation. If one was to look at the 10 Commandments and then look at our “Christian Nation” one would not only see that we daily transgress these laws and do nothing about them, but that nowhere is it stated that thou shall not be gay and get married. I happen to think that God would punish us more for our treatment of the least of the people, you know the brethren of Jesus (as) than He would for our allowing Gay couples to have civil rights.

But heh, if a child dies tonight in America of starvation, that’s less important and less worthy of protest, than if a gay couple can file jointly on a tax return!

Robert,

A simple answer to your question is yes… America is a Christian nation. No America is not like Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Iran or China; the point is Christian principals are the foundational blocks that formed our nation. Please read the article “Is Obama Correct: Is America No Longer A Christian Nation”. As an American Citizen who spent twenty years protecting and defending our Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic there is a grave concern regarding the current path of our nation. The foundation of a Christian is not the denomination a person belongs to; the foundation is a personal relationship daily relationship with the Lord God and accepting Him as your Lord and savior. The “guide” America’s success is God’s word the Holy Bible

 Please explain assumption… how does one assume that which is written down for that is of course unless one has their own agenda. Freedom of speech is always an issue with many people. The “Bill of Rights” is clear it is the “Progressives” and those who are like them who have a problem with comprehension. “abridging the freedom of speech”. Freedom of speech is the right of a person to verbalize their point of view without condensing, diminishing, depriving or shortening the duration of their comment. There is no provision in this amendment of our Constitution that allows a person to speak in an uncivil manner. People have a right to voice their opinion; clearly, there is not allowance for slander or foul and disrespectful language towards another person.  Concerning the separation of church and state in 1802, Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter replying to the Danbury Baptist. In the letter he stated

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.” 

 Jefferson was concerned regarding a wall of separation between Man and God were people not provided the free exercise of their religion. Jefferson’s letter had nothing to do with the removal of God or the Holy Bible from the public square. With respect, it is not about a specific Cannon, Theology, Denomination, or any other labels one would choose to use. The Supreme Court referencing  Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 457 (1892) stated “No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation.”. Please consider the following:

 “the original intent of our Founding Fathers was clear. This is and always should be a Christian nation because true Christian principles protect everyone’s rights, especially the right to disagree.

 In 1789, the United States Congress voted this resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.” This was an accepted practice in schools at the time of our revolution.

Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the Scriptures: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies, is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”

 From the article, “U.S. District Court judge chooses to leave God out of the Pledge of Allegiance”

 When all is said and done, in this world there is only one thing that will truly matter; And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3 (KJV)  The Holy Bible was as true foundation in 1636 as it was in 1789, 1802, 1892, the foundational cornerstone. The Courts did get it right America is a Christian Nation. You ask about which church law to follow… the answer is it is not about Church law, the model is God’s law.

With respect your case is not emboldened by this writers comment as the intent is not hypocrisy as this writer believes in the God of Scripture, the Trinity, and that accepting Jesus as ones personal savior is the only way to the Father. The point is Christian principals are America’s foundation our Constitution clearly states, “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,”.  This writer has never implied or suggested the denial of a person’s faith or religion. However, we must not forget a civil society must maintain morals, standards and values. Please explain the problem with having established morals, standards and values in society. The model is God’s law from the Holy Bible.

How can you say, “It doesn’t matter what you or I feel about God, religion, theology, etc.  Our beliefs should not be legislated against and or over others beliefs.  If that were allowed, we would have to redefine our Constitution and decide which religion has precedence”? Once again, with respect it does matter. Additionally you say in your post, “I think it’s a miscarriage of Justice that the California Supreme Court upheld the ruling barring same-sex marriage outlined under the notorious Prop 8 legislation.” To that, I ask this question why you would promote a lifestyle that God considers an abomination.

Robert, you are the one who is missing the point… Judeo-Christian and democratic principals are the foundation and the Cornerstone America.  Any civil society or nation must have morals values and standards for the citizens of the society to follow. Each society and nation is as unique as God Chose to make it. There is only one Creator and that Creator is the Lord God.  PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE understand it is not about religion… God wants a personal relationship with each of us. A personal relationship with the Lord God, the right to worship God or not worship God is the foundational principal of America.

Contraire, the end times are coming it is not a rant to be clear you are correct. Even Jesus Christ the Son of God does not know the time of his return. The intended meaning of the comment was that scripture explains that we are to recognize the wretchedness of those who would call that that is evil good and good evil, and we are to recognize God and His Gospel and His wrath.  At no time was there a mention of legislating against a person’s faith that is unconstitutional. The Constitution provides you the right to follow God as one chooses or not. God’s will is the same as it was yesterday, today, and it will be tomorrow. The time frame is His alone … Homosexual Marriage is an abomination in the Christian Faith and am sure homosexuality is not acceptable in the Muslim Faith. You speak of the Ten Commandments; you are correct there has been much transgression. The Commandments provided by God established acceptable standards for the Hebrew nation to follow. The reality check here is to break one Commandment is to break them all we are all sinners, you see it is not “the”, or “which”, sin but sin itself that God does not allow in His presence. A person cannot work their way to Salvation; it is by God’s Grace that we are saved through Faith and not of one’s self but Salvation is a gift of God.     

Transgression for man is daily because we are born of a sinful nature God knows this that is why He sent Jesus that all would not perish. To be sure, each of us will be accountable for our actions; the choice is a personal one to choose Jesus… or to have eternal separation from God in ones future. Homosexuality, people going hungry, not following God as we should these and many more are all transgressions and show the sinful nature of man. No, it is not right that in a nation as powerful as America that a child should go hungry. You would have to ask our President why it is more important to bail out corporations than to feed hungry children. In the process ask the President when it was decided that Civil Rights laws became paramount to the laws of God.   

 Blessings,

AV1

Mr. Salaam’s entire post in regard to Proposition eight  is available HERE

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6 Responses

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  1. With respect David Barton may not be a lawyer…That being said I fail to see the problem with the RECOGNITION of America as a Christian nation. The founders of our great nation recognized “religion”… as a fundamental principal of government. Without religion the government of a free people can not be maintained. As a Christian I believe that the reference to America being a Christian nation still holds true today. according to the 2010 statistical abstract from the the U.S. Govrnment Cencus http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/population/religion.html the folllowing information is available:
    Religious Group 1990 2001 2008

    (1,000) (1,000) (1,000)
    Adult population, total \1 175,440 207,983 228,182
    Total Christian 151,225 159,514 173,402

    specious??? Not according to the U.S. Government Cencus, Christian’s are the largest religious group in America. Not Being alive in 1892 and with respect I recognize our Founder’s position

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”

    I believe the Courts point to be just as America is prodominatly Christian today, so it was in 1892.

    The founders of America believed there to be five fundamental religious beliefs to be taught in shools.

    1. There is a Creator who made all things, and mankind should recogniza and worship him.
    2. The Creator has revealed a moral code of behavior for happy living which distingushes right from wrong.
    3 The Creator holds mankind responsible for the way they treat each other.
    4. All mankind live beyond this life.
    5.In the next life mankind are judged for their conduct in this one.

    These fundamental were articulated by Bengamin Franklin (Smyth, The Writings of Benjamin Franklin 10:84) The 5000 Year Leap p. 77-78

    Although David Barton has addresses this topic it is not about him. It is simply my conservitive point of view with no law degree and not looking for a legal loophole. I leave you with this thought:

    “Amendment I
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    I believe the Founders said what they ment and ment what they said not needing legal interpitation. Kindly awaiting your reply.

    Blessings
    AV1

    americanvoice1

    November 4, 2010 at 8:00 PM

  2. In 1892 the US Supreme Court made this ruling in a case. (Church of The Holy Trinity vs. The United States.) “No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation.”

    No, that was not a ruling. The ruling was that the law against imported labor did not apply to clergy.

    The line you quote was in obiter dicta, which is discussion of how the judge or court got to the ruling. It is not legally binding in any way, and in the context of things, it was simple historical error (if not hysterical over-exertion). At some point someone — probably the U.S. Solicitor General — had argued that the Supreme Court must interpret laws as “hostile to religion,” under the first amendment. The statement you cite was written in explaining why the Court found that argument specious.

    You can read a bit more about Church of the Holy Trinity vs. U.S. (143 U.S. 457 (1892)), and more about the erroneous idea, here.

    Don’t be misled by David Barton. He is not a lawyer, was never a lawyer, and from the looks of things, never bothered to read any serious law.

    Ed Darrell

    October 24, 2010 at 1:36 AM

  3. AV1,

    While it may be true that there are currently more Americans Christians than any other faith, I would not call us a Christian nation–nor should we strive to be. (said as a Christian, myself)

    Morals, principals, values and ethics may find kinship and similarities in the Bible (and most likely a number of religions) but that does not mean they are co-dependent and must be referred to in the same breath. After all, there are many individuals in the world and our past that have been the epitome of humanity and yet not Christians.

    American should always be more about the freedom of choice to practice any religion one wishes and as a result should never champion one above others. I agree with Jon. Some of the best parts of our country may be built on similar mentalities used to craft the religious goals of Christianity, but just because America was created by Christians does not mean they strove to lock its future to religious ends.

    Our variety and complexity brings us both turmoil and progress. They define our existence in the global community and render us unique. No need to dilute that by putting a cross on the door.

    Best-
    T. Caine

    T. Caine

    January 2, 2010 at 1:50 PM

  4. Jon, I did not check E-mail yesterday I see that your comment came back as the original is that the way you intended to send it. I hope you and yours are having a wonderful and blessed forth of July.

    Blessings, AV1

    americanvoice1

    July 4, 2009 at 10:58 AM

  5. Hi Jon, Sorry for the slow reply it has been very busy around here with no time to blog. It is good to hear from you again. It is a curious thing…why do you dislike David Barton so much. Another question comes to mind when you say “likeminded sources” to what sources do you refer? If you ask many Americans, Roe v. Wade has succeeded using from poor legal reasoning and judicial activism.

    As for the Department of the Interior, the libraries appear to have an abundance of material related to 17th and 18th century American Christianity. When speaking of our Constitution and the Founding Fathers religious affiliation is abundantly clear. You can locate specific religious affiliation of the Founding Fathers both numerical and percentages at Adherent. Concerning the Federalist Papers not all eighty-five are read, that being said number nineteen does address the Protestant struggle in Europe.

    Our Constitution ends saying “Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,”. Our Constitution was not was not written in Latin Anno Domini (A.D.) therefore “Year of our Lord” is written out as it should have been. As a nation, we were dissolving ties with Europe. The Lord in question is Jesus Christ.

    Our Declaration of Independence ends saying “And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.” The only one divine Providence is the Lord God.

    The Articles of Confederation end saying “Done at Philadelphia in the state of Pennsylvania the ninth Day of July in the Year of our Lord one Thousand seven Hundred and Seventy-eight, and in the third year of the independence of America.” The Articles of Confederation were written in English not Latin Anno Domini (A.D.) therefore “Year of our Lord” is written out, as it should have been. As a nation, we were dissolving ties with Europe. The Lord in question is Jesus Christ.

    America in both a public and private sense has morals, values, ethics, and principals of a Christian nature entwined in our history providing our nation with a strong Christian heritage. It is because of that heritage that people of different faiths and backgrounds are welcome on our soil.

    Jon as always it is a pleasure to share with you… Thanks for your patience and the good questions. Kindly awaiting your reply

    Blessings,
    AV1

    americanvoice1

    June 27, 2009 at 9:43 PM

  6. I was checking the source for “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools” and it came up in 1782 before there was a Constitution, not 1789. And by the way, that’s just what all of the sources (likeminded to this one) said on the Internet; I haven’t found it in an official historical source. It may be phony.

    Likewise there were no public schools in 1782.

    Re the Holy Trinity case, it has about as much authority in as Roe v. Wade; it was the Supreme Courts opinion (just that) and not a good one. Even Justice Scalia in “A Matter of Interpretation,” has written that Holy Trinity is textbook for piss poor legal reasoning and judicial activism.

    The Founding Documents of 1776-89, the DOI, Constitution and Federalist Papers have little to do what what’s written in the Bible.

    That’s why America in a public or civil sense, was NOT founded to be a “Christian Nation.”

    Don’t be misled by David Barton.

    Jon Rowe

    June 12, 2009 at 3:44 PM


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